Episode 73: Turnaround Secrets, Pt. 2

Listen and nerd out on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify
‍
30 Turnaround Secrets Ebook By Drew Sanocki: DOWNLOAD NOW
‍

‍Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to Nerd Marketing, an original podcast for e -commerce operators and marketers looking to level up. Drew Sanocki and Michael Epstein will bring you actionable strategies from their decades of running eight and nine figure brands, along with interviews and insights from the leaders of some of the most successful brands in the world.

Drew:
Today on the Nerd Marketing Podcast, we are doing the second half of our turnaround tips. We have 30 tips, one for every day of whatever month we did this in. And in the last episode, we did tips 1 through 15. Today, Mike and I go into tips 16 to 30. These are the top things, the top tactics, growth hacks we've used at the various companies where we've gone in and turned them around and got them profitable quickly. If you're already profitable, this series will teach you how to get more profitable or grow your profits. So hope you enjoy it. A lot of good stuff in the second half here. Some organizational stuff, how to hire a CMO. You know, your 30, 60, 90 plan, how to get everybody on the same page and executing in the same direction. So I hope you enjoy it. Part two of Turnaround Tips on the Nerd Marketing Podcast.

Michael:

Drew, we're back with part two of our series, 30 turnaround tips.

Drew:

That's right, battle tested from our 25 years in  e-commerce. What did we get up to last time? Tip number 15.

Michael:

Yeah, you want to jump in? We hit number 16.

Drew:

Got another 16 to go. Sorry, got another 15 to go starting with number 16. Got my coffee.

Michael:

This is one that came up recently for us cutting organizational costs.

Drew:

I feel like we do this every couple months and it would be a good thing. So three big organizational costs. Number one, meetings, too many meetings. Number two, we call it organizational spam, but it's like reporting, unnecessary reporting and CCing people and stuff like that. And the third is longer than six month IT projects. So that one comes from Bob Pfeiffer.

Michael:

Yeah.

Drew:

I think it's a good rule of thumb. So let's start with number one, too many meetings. Companies have too many meetings. Typically in a turnaround, you take over the company and you go in and you just see there's the marketing meeting, the sales meeting, the IT meeting. Each of these meetings, I mean, there's enough online about how bad meetings are, but like you gotta sum up the hourly rate of everybody in the meeting and multiply it by the time that you're in the meetings. Just a huge time sink. So the first thing we do is much like zero-based budgeting, we do zero-based meetings. We cancel all meetings and kind of force everybody to re-justify the meetings.

Michael:

Yeah, I think a lot of folks have these recurring meetings on their calendar and they become sort of pointless over time, but nobody ever makes the effort to cut that. They just keep going because it's just what they've always done and just shows up on their calendar. I know Shopify, it was a little controversial. They did this, I think late last year, and they calculated that they saved something like 320,000 hours of time in meetings by essentially doing what you said, declare meaning bankruptcy, make people sort of reset and decide what's actually still absolutely necessary. So that's a great one.

Drew:

Yep. Organizational spam is like too many CCs on an email. And I would say we don't suffer from this at PostPilot, but I've been at so many turnarounds and this is like another symptom of something going wrong at the company. There's no accountability.

What people do is they CC everybody and their brother so that nobody has to make a decision and they can abdicate responsibility or like they don't have to make a decision. They put it on like 20 people that they CC on an email. So put an end to that. It forces everybody to kind of deal with, you know, your lack of ability to make a decision. Often these companies have too many reports, reports like what's up with this TPS report? we've just run this forever and emailed it out to everybody.

And AutoAnything was like this. We probably had like 30 reports that just kept coming into my inbox every day. I still to this day, I don't know what they all did or nobody knew how to shut them off, but they just, they just slow everybody down. So kill that stuff.

Michael:

Yep. And then the last one is the IT projects. And I don't think we're saying don't ever think about long-term direction and vision for where you want to go with things as much as break these things down into much more manageable pieces of work that you can track and measure against. What, what always tends to happen is you set these long deadlines for these projects and then you don't realize, you know, partially through that you are wildly off on projections because there's no sort of milestones or accountability along the way and these things just end up lasting forever just going on in perpetuity and never ending and because you never sort of chunk them down into pieces that you can hold people accountable to completing and getting value from it along the way versus waiting until some giant project is done sometime in the future before we can actually benefit from that work.

Drew:

Yeah, I feel like in our ecosystem, the big two are like the Shopify migration and the NetSuite migration. Those two projects threaten to be, you know, just like perpetual projects that you pay for forever before they actually happen. So definitely try to get some results within six months. Let's move to tip 17.

Michael:

Yep. A little controversial. A little controversial.

Drew:

Tip number 17 is don't over-optimize for customer satisfaction. It is in that I think the big realization here is your current customers or maybe not your future customers. We've both been a part of organizations that you could optimize for customer satisfaction all day long. You could look at your NPS scores all day long and make these little tweaks that at the end of the day, don't improve the overall profitability of the business. I think what the NPS survey misses is, what does that customer represent in terms of your customer segments and ultimately your lifetime value? You want to optimize for certain customers, not for others.

Michael:

Yeah, I think that's the key takeaway here is you want to invest in certain experiences for the customers that really drive the revenue and profitability of your business. But if you over optimize by trying to do everything for everyone all the time, that's going to really bleed into your profits. And particularly when you're in a turnaround or a low margin situation, you got to just accept reality and that's you got to actually make money. We are big advocates of great customer experiences. At the same time, you have to look at, be selective in how you actually implement that. All right.

Drew:

Tip number 18, hire a baller CMO. So that was, that's you basically. This was our first move at Auto Anything was to bring Mike on as a baller CMO. The CMO's job is to drive that revenue line, to get everything profitable, all your paid programs, get the whole organization pointed in one direction on the revenue side of the business. And so the CMO is critical to a turnaround in as much as like the CFO is critical on the cost side. You just need a great CMO. And I think the nuance here is, or the, the, the stumbling block is too many companies will choose that CMO out of like a bigger company, a bigger brand thinking that they get some, some secret sauce. You know, you get the director out of Estee Lauder or, you know, the Gap or, or Williams Sonoma, some big brand. And you feel like, wow, I get a little bit of that magic at my company. And in reality, those people come in, they're well paid at those other companies. They often have teams under them and they're, and they're going to require that kind of resourcing to do anything for you as your CMO. So.

Personally, I've had much better luck looking for the scrappy entrepreneur who has maybe gotten a company up to five million in revenue and tapped out and he or she is just looking for something bigger, maybe a little bit more stability or something. And yet that person can come on as a CMO, they can write copy, they know about email subject lines or how to get any number of things working. They can do it themselves. They don't need to be surrounded by a team to support them.

Michael:
Yeah, I think that in this case, the context in particular around it being a turnaround, you got, you need somebody that can roll up their sleeves and is able to be decisive and take action and not think I'm just going to go off and think about brand strategy for the next six months and then come back with a deck on it. that's, that's the nuance. There are certain points in your company's life where you need somebody that really can think about elevating the brand and a different type of multi-touch experience. And yeah, I mean, even in a turnaround, you should be thinking about that stuff, but there's a difference, particularly in the sense of urgency that exists in these types of situations where you just need action and decisiveness. And again, the ability to sort of know, you know, come in with a playbook and a plan and start executing quickly. All right.

Drew:

Yeah, before I get ripped by every director from Estee Lauder. There's certainly exceptions to the rule. All right, yeah, tip number 19. Work your AP and your AR, your accounts payable and accounts receivable. Typically the job of a good CFO. I remember we took over AutoAnything. They just had this giant accounts receivable that we had to basically collect on its free money. You want to get that down and then you want to extend terms on your accounts payable. It's sort of accounting 101, but so many businesses pay everything off the day that the invoice comes in when you could go to something like net 30 and wait 30 days to pay. And you get a nice cash cushion as a result of this. And quick, easy tip. I don't know, Mike, any more color on that or?

Michael:

No, it's pretty straightforward. Cash is oxygen. Extend your cash, even if it means potentially providing different terms on other things in order to get extensions on those payment terms. But we've seen just remarkable changes in a business when you can create more cash flow through adjusting terms. So all right. Rethink your free shipping policy. Another thing that may be somewhat controversial, what do you think, Drew?

Drew:

So many businesses, I'm thinking of Karma Loop, Auto Anything, they shipped everything free and you looked at the numbers and a lot of the orders below a certain size were losing money because they'd lose money and shipping was too expensive. They didn't have enough gross margin on those orders to cover shipping. And I don't know, because it's like historical precedent or they feel like they're online, they had left everything free. So it's definitely a great lever to implement a free shipping threshold below which customer pays for shipping. How we used to set that was we'd look at the AOVs and I think set it somewhere around there. There's an argument for setting it a little bit below there in order to get the AOV up, but always a good move and really generated some cash almost overnight.

Michael:

Yeah, I think in particular, if you're in really highly commoditized business, that makes it tougher if you're competing with the same exact product that's easily available on Amazon for free shipping and costs five bucks. But for folks that are selling their own branded products, you're not directly competing in the same way. So think about how to extract a little more value and make the unit economics work by increasing that threshold.

Drew:

Tip 21.

Michael:

21 is this this channel I've heard a little bit about direct mail. Who should be running direct mail? What do we think?

Drew:

Everyone man, this is tip number 21 use direct mail because every turnaround we've gone into they haven't been using it And it's an easy win. It gets you another 10% 20% on revenue and often on the bottom line if you even have a bottom line But the general idea is you go in you know, karma loop head I don't know how many million people on their email list auto anything again like four or five million people in their customer file on their email list, you crack open Klaviyo and then you see, my God, this customer, this company is only emailing, you know, 10% of the list. The other 90% have unsubscribed, never subscribed or are not opening my emails. And it's just very, it's eye opening. It's like, I'm paying all this for my ESP, essentially to manage all these customers. And I can only communicate with like 10% of them. So, you know email's working. You know your win-backs work. You know your seasonal promotions work. It's a very quick and easy win to flip whatever's working in email into the other 90 % of your previous buyers, very rich audience. And the only way to do that with certainty is through direct mail. So, you know, sign up for an app like PostPilot and you can pretty simply flip your creative or whatever's working in email into direct mail, expand that 10 % up to the full 100 % of your previous buyers. It's kind of a no brainer and it's part of our playbook to do during the first couple of weeks during which we take over a new company.

Michael:

Yeah, love it. Easy win. And then you can also start thinking about how to implement it into your acquisition strategy as well. So obviously a lot of brands right now are struggling with meta volatility, CPMs increasing, all of these things. How do you create more predictable revenue, scalable growth as you start to tap out, especially as you start to tap out or start to see diminishing returns in these other channels? Another great way, your CFO is going to love that because you can sort of say, I can predictably generate this ROI on this investment using this channel.

Drew:

Number 22, implement traction. So traction is the book actually, I think it's implement the entrepreneurial operating system. Gino Wickman's book, Traction, lays out how to do this. It's an OS for your business. Almost everybody I bump into online is running this at their company. The people who aren't running it are often the people who are running the turnarounds that we take over, and we like traction because it gives you just a very simple to implement plan from going from your five year vision, your three year vision down to what are we going to accomplish this year down to what are the OKRs or the ROCs we're going to do this quarter. And then make the leap to what do we focus on this week and how do we develop a weekly cadence of checking in on our progress towards those goals. So it gets the whole team aligned from the lowest level employee all the way up to the board. Everybody in our sphere of influence uses traction, highly recommend it. I think that's all we need to say about tip 22.

Michael:

Yeah, just the other book, because we said two books is Measure What Matters, John Doerr, similar framework. It's mostly focused around OKRs. The traction version of OKRs is like rocks. They're somewhat interchangeable, but it's mostly, they both are in essence aligning the entire org around specific goals that start at the company level and cascade down into the individual departments and then individuals, make sure everybody's moving in the same direction. Everybody's trying to accomplish the same general company goals.

Drew:

All right, Mike, tip 23. Stop with the testing.

Michael:

This drives me nuts, Drew. You get, we see this all the time. Everyone, all everyone in the marketing department is saying we want to, we need to split test this button color. We need to split test the fourth image on the bottom footer of our website because we don't know how, what that's going to do. We got, we got to test everything. We got to, there's this term Meek tweaks that I remember from a long time ago, meaning essentially you, you try and measure these tiny little changes. You get no real statistical significance. You burn a ton of time in the process. They don't have the even ability to move the, to move the needle in a meaningful way. And one thing I liked about a lot of the turnarounds that we've been a part of, these folks have some scale. So smaller changes can have an impact, but like the level and degree to which these people were afraid to make any judgment calls and were saying we're going to take weeks to test the most innocuous, like irrelevant little things to gather data on it was like mind blowing. And we sort of shut that down right away.

TLDR: Use your judgment, use your intuition, make some calls about bigger changes that you want to make. That's something that you're going to actually be able to see show up in the data and potentially the revenue. It doesn't work. You roll it back. You try something else. Don't do this thing of testing every little detail.

Drew:

It's like CYA cowardly marketing to just say like, we're gonna test, we gotta test it. Of course we gotta test it. We gotta test it and assess the incrementality. How many times have I heard that? And it's like, yeah, no shit, Sherlock. Like we got, obviously you wanna test. Who's gonna argue with that? But we're not paying you to do little incremental tests here. We've got a business to turn around. And I think one of this like obsession with testing is that nobody's making the decision. Nobody's making big calls. And at the end of the day, you might be optimizing around a saddle point. The business might have this little local optimum that they were testing around doing incremental changes, a couple percent here, a couple percent there, when you require a bigger strategic shift in how the business operates and in their offer, in their pricing, that really would take you to a whole other level of profitability. And that's kind of what you want on your team, are the people who can make those big calls.

Michael:

Yeah, I love that. The bold changes are so key, but I love one thing in particular that you said, which is it helps remove accountability from the decisions. And I think that's also a persistent cultural problem that a lot of these organizations is they're scared to make the call. You can't get fired for saying all I did was follow the data. We tracked this for four weeks and we noticed a 0.1 % movement. So that's why we did it. I just did what the data told me, but you're not going to turn around a company. You're not going to grow rapidly when you're taking that approach. All right, rant over on that one. Next one is 30-60-90.

Drew:

Tip 24, yeah, have a 30, 60, 90. I think now if Jim Renna, who was like the operating partner at Kingswood, the Kingswood Fund was the PEE group that backed Auto Anything's acquisition. And Jim just at every meeting, you know, early on, what's in the 30, 60, 90? Add it to the 30, 60, 90. Add it to the 30, 60, 90. And then, you know, Sanocki, where's your 30, 60, 90?

Basically, 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. Private equity funds all have a charter. They all say they tell their investors they need to get a 3X over five years or a 4X over 10 years, whatever their charter is. In reality, they all want you to hit the ground running and they all want to see improvements in the first three months. So as the CEO, CMO, and it really trickles down throughout the business, it's really important to have what are you going to accomplish in the first 30, 60, 90 days laid out on a bunch of slides. And then you hit the, those are your biggest wins, many of which are in this, this PDF. And you just hit the ground running and knock out as many as you can, because then you've shown the board and the board has shown the investors that like, Hey, we got this thing cash flowing. It's headed in the right direction. They can go off and focus on another deal, leaving you some leeway now to sort of run your business. But that's the 30-60-90.

Michael:

Yeah, it builds so much trust out of the gate and that is going to make your life infinitely easier when you do that. Because to your point, you can sort of be left alone a little bit and create some breathing room, but you're expected to deliver results. It's also a great thing that we look for a key part of what we look for when we're hiring, when we're hiring somebody. What is your 30, 60, 90 day plan?

So often, another sort of pet peeve of mine, so often the 90 day plan is I will learn all about the business, I will interview a lot of people, I'll watch a lot of things. At 90 days, I'm gonna come back with some ideas of what we do from there. my gosh, that is not the play. If you're listening and you're interviewing, that is not the play, you need to show action. It's a great way to judge people. And Jason Lemkin also did a good post on this, which is basically like, if your Head of Sales can't sell anything within 90 days, that's a giant problem. If your Head of Marketing can't acquire more customers for you within 90 days, they're never going to do it. If someone can't, if someone comes into your business and they're hired, particularly in a more senior role with a specific goal and task assigned to them and they can't show any movement on that KPI within the first 90 days, there's a chance that they never will. So, yes.

Drew:

It's likely. You got to put points on the board early. Early and often.

All right. Tip 25, cut HR, which is not a popular tip for all the people in HR professionals listening to my podcast. But, you know, data set of three or four different turnarounds have gone into a couple hundred people, massive HR departments. I'm talking like four or five people. And you're just like, wait a minute here. You've got way too many staff supporting a business of this size. So it's a little bit of, don't dispute that you need HR. You need to be in compliance. But I would say most private equity funds, especially the ones involved in turning around a business, like to run it really lean and often outsource the HR function.

There's also, for me as a leader, it's a little bit more similar to what I had in the military, which is like a lot of companies like outsource leadership to HR. They're like, hey, we got a cultural problem. HR has to handle that, or we've got a problem communicating that falls on HR, I want my management team to be accountable for that stuff. You know, if we've got problems, we've got to solve it. We've got to stand tall. We've got to face the music. And I think HR can very easily become a crutch. So that's tip 25.

Michael:

I think that's such a great point and totally agree that HR can often be a crutch for bad culture. Like, I'm a terrible boss, but HR, make sure that you're, you know, sending balloons for somebody's birthday and playing trivia games on Friday and that's going to magically solve our culture problem. I think that's what you're saying here and we see it all the time. Don't let that happen.

Drew:

The whole podcast and what HR departments have been doing at these companies.

Michael:

Yeah, I'm not saying every HR professional is bad or that you should have no HR function in the org. I think we're making a pretty specific point about what their role should and shouldn't be and potentially, and also how to optimize the cost of that department.

Drew:

Yeah, I remember one company in particular, you and I get in there and it's like, I don't know what the holiday was, it was St. Patrick's Day or something, you know, and you get this email out of HR and it's like artwork around like happy St. Patrick's Day everyone and you know, what the hell is this? You know, like every every rando holiday, I've got some graphic designer over there, like doing some doodle to send to the whole team. You know, it's like we're paying this person to do this, I guess. We're all celebrating St. Patrick's Day.

Michael:

Again, that's culture, Drew, and I'm putting up the air quotes. That's culture. Yeah.

Drew:

Yeah, if we don't do that, things will come off the rails. So, Tip 26, implement volume discounts.

Big opportunity. I think these brands we've worked with, there are a number of SKUs. And you used to be able to go into the old Google Analytics. I don't know how to find it on the new Google Analytics. But you could go in there and you could see average number of items in every order. When this product, when this suspension is bought, how many are bought in order? Or these brake pads. And it always used to be a nice little trick to set the do volume discounts. Shopify's got to plug in to knock 10 % off if you order a volume that's slightly above the average. And you could probably do it for, you know, 30% of your product catalog, get those volume discounts in there. They appear right on the product page. And, you know, it's, you'll see the lift again over almost overnight because customers are in there ordering the, the average, you know, the, the two pillowcases for the bed.

You give them an incentive for four or an additional set, and a certain number of customers will take that. So it's a nice hack.

Michael:

Next one is a backlog process. We came up with a great framework that we used it when we were running a bunch of turnarounds, which was a backlog process. Tell them about it, Drew.

Drew:

You get everybody in a room, everybody in your department, everybody on the management team and you come up with ideas, right? It might be micro ideas around like, how are we going to improve our email marketing? Or it might be strategic ideas. Like what are, what can we do as a company over the next quarter? You put them all up on the board, you get them into a spreadsheet and then you want to rank them by a couple of things. I've seen ‘ease of implementation’ and ‘expected outcome’ are the two that we love leaning in on. Expected outcome meaning, obviously, you want to work on the bigger ideas first. But there's also how hard is this idea to implement? There's a ton of low-hanging fruit throughout the org that you might be able to bang out in an hour. And those should be also ranked pretty highly. So.

We've got a backlog process. We've got a spreadsheet, I think, which you can get through the website here. And it essentially shows you all these, the ideas down the left-hand side. And you can rank them on expected outcome and ease of implementation. That's our backlog process.

Michael:

Yeah, prioritization is key. Number 28, who's the chief rainmaker?

Drew:

I think that's the CEO. You might disagree with me that it's the CMO, but in my experience, you can't, it's hard to find someone else to own like new business development and finding new places to fish, new ponds to fish in, that your marketing team gets better and better at the existing customer acquisition channels and retention channels and they're optimizing what you've got going on really well. But it’s the CEO who kind of has to look out there and maybe where the business is going over the next couple of years and start to think like, I need to fish over here. I need a B2B sales team. I need strategic partnerships with these guys to sort of like get into a Whole Foods or something. I think that often is very hard to delegate, you know, so if you can't delegate it, it sort of falls on your shoulders as the leader of your business to find new places to fish.

Michael:

Yeah, I agree. Chief visionary in a lot of ways. Doesn't mean that other folks in the org aren't going to participate in that, have thoughts on it, etcetera. But CEO should generally be thinking, taking that step back. That's really one of the most important roles, taking that real step back, high level view of the landscape, and thinking which direction do we need this company to start going in. All right.

Drew:

Tip 29, which is managers in the chain of command. And what I mean here is you want a flat organization, especially in a turnaround. We like managers who also do. So you get into some of these companies, especially the bigger ones that are failing, and you've got pure managers. So managers who actually don't do, they just manage.

The classic example here is 3G Capital. They acquire Anheuser-Busch, and the management teams got their own boardroom, and they've got private jets, and they're actually not doing any. They're just managing. I don't want to say they're not doing anything. So 3G Capital cuts all that management team out. And you take the high performers in each group. You typically make them the manager because you know, the logic being half their time they're going to actually do, the other half they're going to manage, the rest of their team. And so we like that player coach model, especially at a turnaround, because there's just a lot of cost involved in pure managers, and the business doesn't generate any profits. So we've always looked for our Head of Marketing, our Head of Customer Service, they actually do the work as well as manage. We look to promote those people.

Michael:

Yeah, I was just going to say, use the player coach analogy that we like a lot. And it doesn't mean that they should, that should be their entire job. They do need to have oversight over the rest of their team and accountable. But I think the other thing that that does is it creates more, a deeper understanding and empathy for the pains and the challenges of the team when they're actually in the trenches with them, versus just looking at KPIs on a spreadsheet saying, I just need you to improve here. I need you to improve here.

Drew:

And the final tip, tip 30, enjoy the game. I think turnarounds in particular can be super stressful events. You've always got a lot of headwinds, a lot of things going wrong, a lot of pressure from the board. It's very important to separate your ego from the outcome. Develop a practice of either meditation or some way to like unplug and as much as possible, look at business as a game. And for me, being a hired gun kind of helps. This was not this company was not my baby. You know, I didn't start it and I'm not like emotionally invested in it from day one, but I can come in and kind of be dispassionate a little bit and try to look at it like a puzzle I gotta solve. And I think that's helped me manage. You, I know, one of the more, you internalize stress more than any other person I know. So how do you, how do you enjoy the game?

Michael:

No, I think what you said is exactly right. You do have to think about it like a puzzle and it doesn't mean you're not going to get frustrated. But as you said, it is, especially if you're brought in from the outside, it can be easier to disassociate from the company and look at it more, you know, tactically in that sense of like, what are the moves that we have to make to make this thing, to win this game?

I think that's a big part of it. Yeah. I won't dispute that it certainly can get frustrating, but especially in these turnaround situations, if you let every, every challenge and every setback, crush your spirit. I mean, you're going to be in for a long, hard ride. It is going to be very difficult because either challenging situations and you do have to celebrate the wins when you have them. Take the lessons and learnings when you have things that don't go your way and use that as fuel to just continue to move forward. And in the end, yeah, it's trying to create a great outcome out of what usually was not a great situation that was sort of just put on your plate. So, yeah.

Drew:

Yeah, play the long game. And I feel like this could be another series of podcasts about mindset, but something we both work on and you can't forget it. So that wraps up our 30 turnaround tips. You know, it's been fun, Mike.

Top 30 things that came to mind when I look back on all the turnarounds we've worked on. Any parting thoughts?

Michael:

I think we said it in the first one, but this is not obviously not only applicable to turnarounds. I think so many brands are in this position today where they've got to get profitable or more profitable and they've got to do it rapidly because it's a different, different environment than it was a couple of years ago. And two, as a matter of just best practices for any business, you should always be working on getting stronger, more efficient, more profitable. So, we talk about these in the context of turnarounds because that's what you and I have lived and breathed for a long time, but really applicable to any business. And hopefully everybody's found these useful and lights a little bit of a fire under you to take some actions you weren't doing.

Drew:

We put them all together in a PDF. We'll put a link on the podcast page to the ebook page. But yeah, if I were in your shoes today and you were running a D2C brand and needed to get profitable quickly or increase your profits quickly. I'd probably sit down, think about my own 30, 60, 90, take this PDF out and go through these tips and kind of bucket them. And what am I going to do this month, next month, and the third month? And you'd be off to the races. So hope you've enjoyed the turnaround tips and I'm Drew Sanocki. I'm joined by Michael Epstein. This is the Nerd Marketing Podcast. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.

Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Nerd Marketing. Don't forget to check out all of the other great episodes, some of which include interviews with e-commerce marketing masters working with Mr. Beast and Joe Rogan, plus Drew and Michael's experiences in private equity, advice from VC firms on what they look for in investments, and so much more. Like, share, subscribe, and tune in every week for a new episode.

‍

‍