Episode 75: Retention Marketing Masterclass with Chris Orzechowski

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‍Transcript

Announcer

Welcome to Nerd Marketing, an original podcast for e-commerce operators and marketers looking to level up. Drew Sanocki and Michael Epstein will bring you actionable strategies from their decades of running eight and nine figure brands, along with interviews and insights from the leaders of some of the most successful brands in the world.

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Drew

Hey everybody, on today's Nerd Marketing Podcast, we talk to Chris Orzechowski. He's a CMO for a lot of different brands, like Carnivore Snax and Perennial Pastures. And he just wrote a book called The Moat, which is all about building a long-term competitive advantage as an e-commerce or DTC brand. Really interesting subject because I've often thought about how you build a competitive advantage online. So we get into that during this podcast. Hope you enjoy it.

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Chris, thanks for joining us. Nerd Marketing podcast. We got a lot to talk about today, but I want to start by talking about your book, Moat. It's interesting because you're arguing that you can create a sort of a competitive advantage with a DTC brand. And I'm very curious how that gets done. Is it all brand? Is it all product? Is it possible? 

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Chris Orzechowski 

Yeah, I mean for me, like what I've seen, I've worked with a lot of brands over the years, like hundreds of brands, you know, in my 10 now going on year 11 career, right? All different kinds of brands and every space imaginable.  And so I've seen a lot of good, a lot of bad, a lot of ugly. And I think that the brands that have The Moat, they built this like bond and relationship with their customers. 

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People always talk about retention. They're like, you know, only 30% of your customers are going to come back. I'm like, well, there's brands like think about like a brand like Polo Ralph Lauren. Like they retain customers for decades. Right. So like, what's the difference, right? Long-term brands are built on repeat purchases. So in my eyes, retention  is super important and the bond that you build with people is super important. And the lifestyle carrot that you kind of dangle is super important. Right. So if we can take that and infuse it into all of your marketing and use that marketing as a filtering mechanism where you could attract more of those like-minded people who have the same beliefs that your best customers have and you can allocate capital and do it in a cash positive way over and over again. 

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That is the boat essentially.  Because if you can compound capital better than all of your competitors, the more sustainable pace for a longer pace over time and you're getting the right kind of people in the door, there it is, right? Like it's nothing magical. It's nothing like hitting a lottery. It's like something that can kind of be built and engineered. It's like what everyone buys, especially in DTC, the brands tend to do the best to help people on their journey of self actualization, right? Anything that you sell, any, any of these brands you see like these successful brands, you know, in our corner of Twitter, we all hang out. Like there's always competitor products that are available at Walmart, at Costco, that are cheaper, unbranded, they're more convenient too. Like you could go to the store right now and pick them up instead of having to place an order on your phone and wait for it to show up in the mail. So like everything that you sell is already being sold cheaper and more conveniently. So if you want to build a mode, well then you have to kind of elevate it a little bit. You have to kind of dangle that carrot in terms of using the product as a vehicle for the person to further their journey of self-actualization, like up Maslow's hierarchy of needs essentially. 

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Drew

So what's a good example of a company that's done that?

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Chris Orzechowski

Carnivore Snax.

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Drew

Yeah, you're right. You can get jerky anywhere. 

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Chris Orzechowski

Although it is not as good. 

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Drew

I know it's not the same thing. 

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Chris Orzechowski

The product is exceptional. 

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Drew

I love Carnivore Snax. It's not jerky, but I'm just saying like to the Lay-person looking at it like it's jerky, right? Or they lumped it in the same category.

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Chris Orzechowski

Exactly. Right?

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Drew

So how do they differentiate into something more premium? 

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Chris Orzechowski

It's very identity based and like we've tried to do that from day one with all the marketing because I've been working with Mark, Sylvia since they were pre-revenue. Like Mark and I started talking in 2019 when he was getting the initial Kickstarter together. And as soon as I saw the product, I was like, this thing's a winner. I said, don't pay me anything upfront. I will take all my fee on the backend. I'm that confident this thing's going to be a success. I actually went into my own pocket and hired a writer. And that's how I launched my agency. And I was like, I know this thing is going to hit. 

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We did like 200K in 30 days off that initial campaign. But what was interesting about it was we'd wanted to take this fun voice and build an identity around it and build kind of like a tribe where we have common enemies,  where we can rally all of our people around a common mission. So we'll do things like rail against politicians and all these international organizations who are trying to basically stop people from eating meat. So we have all the ingredients for a successful tribe. And if people identify with that mission that we're trying to create and identify with the lifestyle, when we build this vision for an upgraded version of who they could be by using the product, that's what people keep buying into over and over again. That's why there are knockoff brands who don't do as well, right? So, and that's always reinforced with the copy, with the SMS we send, with the emails we send, with the product descriptions we make, with the ads, with everything. It all goes back to like that vision for who these people want to be. 

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Drew 

I love it. Do you think it's worked?

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Chris Orzechowski

I mean, the numbers say so.

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Drew 

Yeah. And it's funny because I know the category really well. I've ordered from most of the competitors at some point over the past few years. Not jerky, but within the crisps category, I guess. And they're just they do such a better job at what I'd call branding, but just the packaging, the presentation on the website, the email newsletters, like they're all on point. And I would encourage anybody to check out that brand. Subscribe. Even vegans, just to get a sense of what they're trying to do. They got the ultimate spokesman, Joe Rogan, who came on board, right? In that category is another brand called Carnivore Aurelius, who's like this anonymous, started as a social media channel. I think he did crisps for a while, liver crisps, but pulled the plug because he couldn't get the supply chain squared away. But worth checking out his Instagram, his Twitter, because you get another sense of like, he's built a tribe and all he has to do is insert the product. It doesn't matter what the guy's selling, because he's got the tribe who would buy it. 

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Chris Orzechowski
People want to be, they want to follow a path for how they should be living. This is true for brands like Yeti, right? Like Yeti, very successful brand, like they sell this kind of vision and this lifestyle that like you kind of, okay, well, I want to be like that. I'd like the outdoor stuff. I want to walk on that path. I'm going to buy these products so I can self-actualize and follow down that path. Right? So like that's where it all comes in. When you do a good job with your retention, when you're doing a job with your emails, direct mail, SMS, organic social, all the things that keep people coming back over and over and over again, it becomes part of who they are. So that's why I'm so big on this stuff. And that's why I've always been so big on email because I've found with email, you know, you have that opportunity to build that bond with people. And even like with e-commerce brands, like we've done daily emails for people over the years and like people love them. They just get addicted to the storytelling and the content and all the relationship building that we do. And they just want to keep coming back for more. And that's why I'm always laughing when people talk about like retention problems. I'm like, you just got to write better. You just can have better copy. You just got to have more storytelling. You got to have more personality and everything you do. And people aren't going to leave because they're going to like you. 

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Drew
So it's not just the medium. It's not just do email or do SMS. It's a lot of the content within that medium. 

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Chris Orzechowski
‍Yeah, because otherwise, like Howard Gossage, who's like my favorite, you know, Mad Men era ad guy, he has this quote, he says, people don't read ads, they read what's interesting to them. Sometimes that's an ad, right? So if you look at all of his old ads, they're phenomenal. I mean, they're really some of my favorite ads to study. And everything is just like there's this interesting story. And by the time you're halfway through, then you realize, wait, this is actually selling something, right? It's very much just interesting content and we do that with email and we even do that like how many people test out long form ads on Facebook and they're like, wow, these actually work pretty well. You know, once they add some content or some storytelling or some context and really take the time to explain and bring people into the world. So saying, Hey, we got this thing 10% off. Like that's cool. And if that works, that's awesome. But I always think there's a deeper story to be told and the best brands do that. 

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Michael‍

That's the key distinction is that you're not emailing them every day with just an offer or the same message over and over again. You've got to keep it interesting if you're going to keep up with that cadence.

Chris Orzechowski
Yeah, like brands develop, things happen, right? When I was at Perennial Pastors Ranch, we would always just, I call this one email, the behind the scenes of HQ, like what's going on at the ranch, right? And even if you're not there, even if I'm here in New Jersey and the ranch is over in California, I want to tune in and be like, what are they up to this week? Wow, they got another herd coming in. Wow, this happened at the farm. Wow, they had this event. Look at all the pictures you take, people along the ride as you're building. And there's a lot of brands who do this. And it's always interesting because it's almost like a TV show. It's like you want to tune in to see what happens next. I think when you do that with all of your retention stuff, not just email, like you could do with organic social. I mean, people do this on Instagram anyway. It's like, hey, we're here in the warehouse. We're here in the factory. We're here on this event. And like, that's the stuff that people want to get behind, because most people work for businesses, right? So it's not like your business is some foreign concept that they won't be able to understand. Like they'll find it interesting, if anything.

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Drew
I guess two questions first, Moat is an acronym, right? What does that stand for? And then if you are just getting started or if you run an  e-commerce brand, where do you start creating your Moat? 

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Chris Orzechowski
‍So the acronym is Mission Offers Acquisition and Traction. And it's essentially like just four steps. And I wrote this book because as I was working with different brands, I was like, all right, I got to kind of systematize everything I'm doing. And I kind of was in my head, I knew there was a system going on, but I was like, let me actually just write it out, just so that I could hand it to someone else and know that it's a predictable, repeatable process. So mission is like, again, finding your X factor.

Why would someone inconvenience themselves to buy from you? Why are you different and better than all the other options out there? Once you figure that out, you know who it's for, you know the problem it solves, you understand the benefits that it brings, you create offers, you have a front end and a back end. A lot of businesses don't do that. They're just like, hey, we'll just drive traffic to the website. I'm like, okay I guess if that works, awesome, but it's probably not gonna work forever. 

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And like the best business, you look at a business like Proactiv, right? Billion dollar cosmetic brand, or excuse me, skincare brand. They have their front end offers, they test their offers like relentlessly, you know, and they do them with infomercials, which is super expensive, probably the toughest medium to make work. And then once they have your information, they upsell you on the phone once you order, and then they have you in their file and they hit you with other offers, right? And that's how they built a big successful brand. And a lot of people, they don't have a front end and a back end, they have no idea. They're like, we just drive traffic to our store. They get stuck, right?

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But I think like another brand that does this very well is like Mudwater, right? Like, you know, the coffee alternative, like they have other products to sell you, or even like athletic greens, like no one just goes and buys the athletic greens fish oil, like, it wouldn't make sense, like you buy the athletic greens first, and then once you're a customer, they sell you all these other things in the back end, right?

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So that's what the offers is all about. When I work with a client, it's okay, what's your front end, what's your back end, what's the thing we're gonna use to acquire customers, and what's the thing we're gonna use to monetize the customers, or what are the offers that we've monetized and built the profits with in the back end. Acquisition is just, let's create some ads for the front end to start acquiring customers. And then traction is essentially, okay, now that we have this big list of people that we've been building, how do we deepen that relationship and turn on the retention engine? So first layer is email, second layer is SMS, third layer is programmatic direct mail. And it's like a one, two, three combo. You hit all three of those things, you get your flow set up, you get your campaign set up on a weekly basis, and how can you not win?

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I try to simplify it as much as possible. I've talked to so many brand owners, I'm like, I'm doing this, I'm doing this, I'm going to this trade show, and then I'm over on Pinterest, and I'm doing this thing, and I'm like, what's your front end offer? Do you have an ad running for it? Are you sending emails every week? Okay, if we get those three box checked off, we can move to the next level, but until you start doing those things in the right order, it's like order of operations, like you learn a math class in sixth grade, right? There's an order to kind of start your marketing engine, right? Once you have that all built, then you could add on the other things. You could bring in the influencers and SEO and do all this other stuff. But I think for most brands, especially like in the consumable space, if you just follow those four steps, growth is easy. When you deviate from that, that's when things get complicated. 

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Drew

Interesting. It's funny how in traditional brick and mortar, when you talk about Moats, it is things more like Porter's Five Forces or, you know, you think of Walmart being able to just get goods to the store cheaper than anybody else and jam down their supply chain. And Ikea where, you know, you've got these, I don't know how big the stores are, massive stores located in cheap parts of the city. The staff is like 20. So they just force you to walk through the, like they've got different kinds of Moats. I would put a lot of those under operational efficiency and just being able to deliver your product as effectively, as cheaply as possible. And those, they don't play as much. I feel like those are just table stakes in ecomm, in DTC. You got to do that. You got to be able to have that. It's more brand. It's like the next level of building a Moat. 

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Chris Orzechowski

You just need to give people that model they want to aspire to. That's the biggest thing with all these brands that I've seen. The products in the modern world, people are defined by the products that they buy. That is how you buy your identity nowadays. Thousands of years ago, it's probably different. You win battles and that's what you were known for, whatever the case might be. But nowadays, it's like, why do you buy the car that you buy? Why do you buy the meat crisp that you buy? Why do you buy, you know, if you buy beef from the supermarket on the clearance rack that says a lot, that's something different than if you buy a 500 pound cow share from a general various cow ranch. Right. So like all of these things, everything's a status signal nowadays because we live in that kind of world. You know, it's just the way it is. So I just recognize that. And that's just what I try to do with all of my clients. I'm like, all right, well, how what is the aspirational vision that we're trying to move the customers towards? And if you figure that out and create that, then it gets easier because there's always going to be competitors, but they might just be arbitrage and they might just found one channel they're good at. And like, that doesn't mean they're going to be around forever. You might outlast them all as long as you can build that ideal for people to aspire to. 

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Drew
You've CMO'd a number of these very successful D2C brands. What do you do like day one? I imagine given your background, you're starting with some of the copywriting and retention over acquisition. Like you're not diving into their Facebook funnels or are you diving into their email program first?

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Chris Orzechowski

The easiest money is with email, definitely, just because there's always something that people aren't doing. I mean, sometimes I'll go into brands and they're like, yeah, we send like one email a month. I'm like, hey, want to see a magic trick? It's like $20,000 out up in there, right? Or more sometimes, right? I had a client, another regenerative cattle ranch, she had a list of a thousand people. I said, send this nine word email. Is it that Dean Jackson nine word email for her cow shares? She made 15K in 24 hours. So I just go and do magic tricks. I'm just like, hey, you wanna see this? So like with email, it's usually you're not sending enough. You don't have your lifecycle automations in place. Or the emails that you are sending are boring. It's like those are the three main problems, right? So just about every brand I've ever seen has at least one, if not all three of those problems, right? So we'll go in day one, day zero, whatever you wanna call it, make some money appear out of thin air. We'll fix some of the automations. We will make the emails more interesting and establish a better cadence and more frequency. And just increasing frequency is the easiest thing in the world because no one sends enough emails. Like you can never send enough.

I know people are hesitant, but like, you know, you get on like J.Crew's email list, they'll email you like six times a day. They don't care, you know, like, and why do they do that? Like, why? Does success leave clues? I think so, you know, Ralph runs the same way. Like a lot of these big brands, you know, their email strategy, I think more is about just casting impressions, like treating it as if it's like a, like a Facebook almost, you know, where we're just trying to get impressions all day. But the brands that made the most money tend to also send the most emails. And I've just seen this time and time again. You're not bothering your customers. Again, if your customer wants your products and you solve a need for them, then why not communicate more? The people who weren't going to buy, they're going to leave. And that's fine. But they were never going to buy from you anyway. So why do you care about those people leaving? So I'm always just pushing those things immediately. We start to build cash from the existing database. If we have an SMS list, we could start using that too.

If we're hooked up a PostPilot, we get those set up and just let those run on autopilot, which is obviously don't have to sell you guys on that. And then after that, we look to acquisition, right? And a lot of times what happens is if we start writing better emails, we have better copy there. A lot of that copy we could take and repurpose for acquisition, you know, in terms of Facebook, Instagram, whatever we want to use. Like that's one of the things we're gonna start testing Carnivore Snax, like all these product descriptions, all the emails that I post on Twitter, the funny ones, you know, the boron on the floor and the one-star review that we got. And I kind of made fun of that guy like, we're going to test those out as front end ads and like, why wouldn't they convert? You know, they worked really well with email or just putting into a different medium and repurposing it. So just those moves alone with most brands, we tend to get a pretty good result right off the bat. So I just look for little hinges that swing big doors. I'm like, where are the little holes in the bucket that we could plug, make revenue appear fast, make it more consistent, make it repeatable. And then how do we scale it up on the front end? 

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Drew
‍Yeah, we always say start on retention because you generate cash flow. It's just a lot cheaper to start there. Acquisition is expensive. And then you can incorporate all your learnings into your acquisition campaign. 

On acquisition, I've noticed you are active on Twitter, especially highlighting a lot of sort of like long form, atypical acquisition ad campaigns. And I've noticed them popping up too. I think I've seen the Peaches brand 10 times and there's another woman who has like a longform video, it's got to be 45 minutes about nutrition or how bread, how we ate bread at one point, count something like that. But you know, the first thing I know is the length of these ads, like 45 minute ads. And you like that now, or you say it's working. 

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Chris Orzechowski
‍Some of these ads have millions of impressions, right? So there's a lot of, like, you know, DTC darling brands that we all know and love. You know, like you have your Hexclads in your rage, and like, they're running ads on X. And the thing was, like, last year, maybe halfway through the year, I was getting frustrated with some Facebook ad campaigns I was trying to run on my own account. So I said, you know what, I do all this posting on X, let me actually just see if I can run an ad. 

So I started looking around. I was like, let me watch some YouTube videos, read some articles, and there was nothing. And then everyone I talked to, they're like, yeah, Twitter ads don't work. I was like, what do you mean they don't work? They're like, no, they don't work. I'm like, OK, whatever. And then I start seeing all these brands. This brand has six million impressions on that. This one has 45 million impressions on that. This brand has 107 million impressions on an ad. And I start breaking out my calculator and I'm like, okay, so these people might be spending five figures, six figures, maybe even more to get to that. Like, you're not gonna get to that level of impressions unless you spend a decent amount of money. And like, some of these are like, I don't think the people at Hexclad are just lighting money on fire. I mean, I could be wrong, I don't know. I don't know them, I don't know their team, but like, I'm pretty sure they're not just blatantly lighting money on fire on X, right?

So everyone's like, they don't work. I'm like, well, they're working for some people, so they have to work. And there's a lot of these obscure little brands like the Peaches brand, like Rachel's Texas Kitchen. And it's this Mennonite woman and she's selling canned peaches and pickles and beets for $11.99 a jar or whatever. And these ads had millions of impressions. I'm like, okay, so it's got to work in some regard. And then I start seeing the software companies doing it. I'm like, so there's something here, but the greater business community has not caught on to it yet.

And I started running my own campaigns. I have a campaign running right now. It's going to premium subscribers in the United States on iOS devices. So it's kind of a small, tight, really high-quality segment of people within the platform. And I'm getting 38 cent CPMs. So I'm like, okay, that's not terrible. You know, considering for some clients on Facebook, we're paying 30, 35. And again, it's not the most important metric, obviously, but I'm like, it's super cheap right now. And there kind of was this vacuum that was created. 

You know, Elon's obviously been at war with some of the big advertisers. They don't like him. He doesn't like them. Whatever, I don't know, that's not my department, I can't speak to that. But I know a lot of them left, but then a few of them came back. And I was like, why would they be coming back? If you really don't like the guy, why are you coming back? He has something here that they need, right? They're smart people. I think the world's smartest people on X look at the DTC community, look at the investing community, look at the business community, that's where everyone hangs out, right? They're rolling out these new integrations with Shopify now. They're building all these new things. 

So I think the platforms are super early, but there's a lot of large-scale e-commerce brands and these very obscure brands that you've never heard of that are like, you know, these hyper-savvy direct response brands. They're not hanging out on Twitter or going to dinners and events. They're just doing their thing, compounding capital, building these brands. No one even knows who the face is, right? But everyone in the middle, that greater business community has not caught on yet. But I think this is the year when the tide starts to turn, at least from what I've seen.

Michael

You talked about the one star review that you were running and some of the ads that you started running on Twitter. Like what are some of those hooks that you're seeing work right now on the acquisition side?

Chris Orzechowski
‍I try to like bucket things, right? Like I try to do things that are a little bit more shock and awe just because so they stand out. You know, so many people are just like, Hey, benefit statement coupon, right? And that's cool. And if that works, I think that's a good first initial test to roll out. For example, one of my clients right now, they're a sock brand.

And he came to me the other day, he said, I'm actually sold out of just about everything except for extra large socks. He's like, so I kind of got a throttle, my ad spin. I said, hold on a second. What if we did an ad that said looking for men with extra large sweaty feet? And so he made like a sign like with AI, he made like, it looks like a, like a piece of paper in a store window. And that is, you know, wanted men with huge sweaty feet. And like, that's the ad that we're running. So like it's arresting, it's a pattern interrupt, it's different. And obviously the hook is to, you only have XL socks. So, you know, go in and buy them.

So like I'm always trying to see like how do we buck the trends? How do we make it different, right? Not try to outcompete people on benefits, but make things so wildly different. Like at Perennial Pastures, one of the ads that we ran, like, you know, we were selling chicken, a whole chicken for $30. And like you can go get, you know, chicken breast in the supermarket for like $5 a pound. So like, if we're going to sell something that's essentially, you know, two to three times the price, how do we do that? Right. So what we did was we talked about how our chickens are air chilled, not chemical.

You know, they don't go into the chemical vat with the chlorine and all those nasty chemicals. And that's what happens when you eat chicken. They dump thousands of these chickens in, they bleach it, they put all this chlorine stuff to kill all the germs. There's no salmonella. When you air chill, you just put on the rack in the freezer and then it kind of chills down. They package it up. So we talked about the pink juice that's inside your chicken packet when you open it up. So that was like an interesting educational piece. That's not just like, hey, we have chicken. It's really yummy. Intergenerally raised. Here's a coupon. That's what everyone does. I don't like doing that. I say we're going to talk about the pink juice. We're going to talk about the problem.

We're gonna call this out, right? So we're gonna take the focus off the product slightly and bring it back to the person who's like, this is what you're eating every single time you check in the supermarket. So we're changing beliefs. And like, that's what I try to do with my ads too, is I try to shift people's beliefs and shift the way that they think about buying that particular type of product. Because if we could shift those beliefs, we change buying behavior over the longterm, right? It's kind of like my grandfather gave me lockpicking tools when I was very young. I thought they were the coolest things in the world.

‍What he explained to me was like, there's these tumblers in the lock. And like, if any of those tumblers are stuck, the locks not going to open. In your brain, there's tumblers too, right? It's all the beliefs that you have. So you, the advertising that you create needs to shift people's beliefs so that all the tumblers are open, because there's one objection that's unmet. They're not going to buy, right? But if you count every single one of those and shift their beliefs, so they believe the same things that you've identified that they need to have to be a good customer, right? Like if someone believes,

I would never pay $30 for a chicken that's a ripoff. I don't care how good it is. Okay, there's not going to be a customer. But if we can show them and shift that belief, be like, you're eating poison every time you eat stick from the supermarket. Okay, maybe I'll consider it now. So that's what we try to do with our ads. We always try to take a completely different approach. Instead of just saying, hey, here's the benefit. Here's three bullets about it. That's a good starting point. But I think you got to go one level deeper if you really want to get outsized results.

Drew
‍I love it. To bring this home, how does this all translate into direct mail?

Chris Orzechowski
I think with direct mail, you just got to go big with the offer. I mean, like, again, and you guys got to check this for me, you know, checking the internal systems. But we had a 107.9 X ROAS with a small campaign. It was a small, wasn't a huge, huge roll out. But how does 107.9 X ROAS with the campaign for perennial pastures? What we did was for everyone with a certain radius of the farm. We said, if you buy a cow share, a whole cow share, which is 500 pounds of meat, 6K, we will give you a free freezer. And that thing just absolutely crushed. Because again, I thought about the lock and key and tumbler analogy, right? I was like, what is the tumbler that's still stuck? Why aren't people going over the line? Why are they only buying the eighth or the quarter or the starter share? What's it gonna take to get these people over the line to pony up 6K and get 500 pounds of beef? And the number one objection everyone says is like, I would love to, it sounds awesome, I really want to, but my wife's gonna kill me because we don't have room, right? Or they'd say something like that. Like it would always be one of those type of objections. Right. And I was like, what if we buy you a freezer and we fill it with the beef and we drop it off at your house? They're like, that could work. Right. So now we've removed that number one objection and it just sold like crazy, right?

And we started testing this out in person and they rolled out to a much bigger campaign, you know, on Facebook. I think the Facebook ROAS was on the lowest I saw was like 10X. It might have even been as high as 12X. I mean, obviously it's a little bit easier to do that when you have such a high average order value you know, if you're selling a $20 skin cream is going to be much more difficult, right? But it's just crazy results. So I think with direct mail just going big, I really like the handwritten stuff too. I love that you guys have that as a feature because there's so much you can do from the handwritten aspect of it. But I mean, I think if you get your bases covered with all the lifecycle stuff, then you have an opportunity to test out more like one-off campaigns for specific promotions throughout the year for certain things that you want to run. But the way that you get outside results is thinking outside the box, right? If you just copy what everyone else is doing you're going to get similar results. And sometimes those results are good or sometimes they're not good. Sometimes they look good when people post about them on social media, but you don't actually know everything else going on behind the scenes. So what I always say is like, what's the opposite of what everyone's doing, right? Like everyone's trying to discount their beef. We're going to sell for more money and we're going to give you a free freezer. We're going to go in the complete opposite direction. We're going to go crazy with it. Right. And those are the things that tend to be the breakthrough ideas. 

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Drew
Awesome, Chris. Well, this has been great. Are you still taking new clients now or are you, you're pretty full?

Chris Orzechowski
‍I mean, I'm always full. But yeah, for the right clients, I'll make some time. I'm just looking for cool brands that I like working with. I'm at the point in my career, I've worked with so many different companies. I don't need the money necessarily from anyone. I have my own courses and books and I have my own handful of private clients already. So I'm not trying to scale up to the moon and build some big thing, some big and personal agency or anything like that. I just love working with people who I can have fun with who have cool products that I think I could do a good job for. 

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Drew
Yeah. Can't recommend Chris enough if you got a good product. How can we get in touch with you? You direct people to Twitter? 



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Chris Orzechowski


Yeah, you go to Twitter. You can go on Amazon, get my book, The Moat, my website, 100yearbrand.com, It's up. I need to change it. I've been so busy. I haven't... It still says sign up for the wait list. So hopefully I'll change that soon once I pull my head up for air from all the other projects I got going on. But you can get on my email list that way and write some funny emails sometimes and it might make you laugh little bit or piss you off. 

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Drew
They do make me laugh. Thanks for joining us, Chris. 



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Chris Orzechowski

Thanks so much for having me. Appreciate it.

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