Episode 55: Discounting Strategies and Coupon Alternatives with Oren Charnoff

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‍Announcer (00:01):

Hey, welcome to the Nerd Marketing Podcast. Join co-hosts and ecomm OGs, Drew Sanocki and Michael Epstein. Get ready as they'll bring you trusted tactics and strategies from boosting your brand's revenue, operations, and profitability.

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Drew Sanocki (00:20):

Hey everybody. Today on the podcast, Mike Epstein talks to Oren Chernoff, the CEO and founder of Get Fondue or Fondue, which is a great app on the app store. They just got acquired less than a year into operations, so we're going to find out why, who bought them, how'd they think about valuation, why do they exit so early? And also the app itself is really cool because they get into how to structure some incentives around discounting that aren't just necessarily coupons. So worth the listen, especially if you think you're spending too much on coupons and on discounts in general. Orrin Chernoff from Get Fondue.

Michael Epstein (01:00):

Oren, great to be with you. Big fan of Fondue. For everybody that doesn't know what Fondue does, maybe we just start there.

Oren Charnoff (01:07):

Sure. So Fondue is the coupon killer. We are providing brands with the most profitable and highest converting way to discounts as opposed to their deep addiction to coupon codes. So we offer a cashback solution and we're loving it.

Michael Epstein (01:19):

And you have an interesting background too. Fondue, first of all isn't an old company. You've been around for what, a year, year and a half.

Oren Charnoff (01:27):

So Fondue started about two-ish years ago on a completely different product that just did not work. We were at a crossroads on, well, what do we do? So we pivoted, which sounds glorious when it works out, but it was really horrible in the moment. It's really difficult. You have a big team, you've got people's livelihoods that you're supporting, and we were fortunate that we were able to find our way to cashback because we just went to a bunch of e-commerce brands and ask them, well, what sucks? And they said some of the normal things, Facebook is expensive, logistics is challenging, but then a lot of brands said they really hate their coupon codes. So then that took us down a route on, well, is there a better way to discount my co-founders? They have backgrounds in e-commerce. Abraham was at Brands. William also PhD in machine learning, started and sold an incontinence brand and I had a background in venture, so we were willing to change, but unwilling to leave e-commerce.

Michael Epstein (02:21):

With your background in venture, how'd you decide to get into e-comm and SaaS?

Oren Charnoff (02:26):

I was with a firm called Hco Ventures, and we were super active in investing in e-commerce in Israel. Israel's known for so many things, cybersecurity, and that's because cyber companies have existed thrive to exit in, and then the alumni from those companies will build something new or people who aspire to build big businesses will follow. And we do so in cyber in Israel, we've got the first generation, Riskified, Wix, Yapo and the like. And so there's this huge renaissance now of second generation e-commerce, SaaS founders, and a lot of my friends in the US where I grew up, instead of doing banking or consulting, they built e-commerce brands. So I happened to be this American guy in Israel who knew e-comm brands in a country with folks looking to connect with brands for the first time. So wound up in e-commerce pretty unintentionally, but the main reason we started this business is because of William and Abraham. I will start any company with them at any time.

Michael Epstein (03:21):

So much about the who, not the what

Oren Charnoff (03:23):

In so many respects. Michael, I look at you and Drew, you guys have done so many different things, but it's always been together

Michael Epstein (03:30):

And like you Drew said, I have an idea, I'd be like, I'm in. It doesn't matter what it's so yeah, totally get it. PostPiot partners with Fondue on a bunch of stuff and we hear the same thing from brands all the time. What are my alternatives to coupons? So we'd love to dig in a little bit there, what your data has shown around how brands should utilize coupons, what are some alternatives to coupons and what are some great insights that you've been able to pull out from your data in terms of how brands should best utilize or not utilize coupons?

Oren Charnoff (04:00):

Totally. And I'll ask the same to you because you've got folks at different parts of the customer journey that are using your awesome form factor through direct mail. So curious about how you see discounting, but we think discounts are good and that coupon codes are bad, right? Discounts work shoppers want that dopamine hit, they want that gamification. But if you're buying D two C, Shopify, this is not necessarily a price sensitive shopper because they could find a likely inferior substitute, a categorically similar on a marketplace at a fraction of the price. So do you care to save 10% on an $80 cent candle you could buy for $5 on Amazon? That's not how elasticity or the price elasticity works, right? But the shoppers want the experience or the opportunity to save, even if they don't really care, they just need that nudge. We've trained people to wait and to look for the discount.

(04:48):

They don't care about it. They would not be buying D two C Shopify. So from the data that we've seen is the way that cashback works is shoppers are eligible for their discount, just got to claim it, and we even push notifications to them, we email them, don't forget to claim your discount, but nonetheless, we're still seeing so many shoppers choosing not to claim, but the thing that's more meaningful is when given the opportunity to choose what type of discount you want, it could take 10 bucks as cash or 15 site credit. That site credit choice is just as popular as the cash redemption. So between the many shoppers who simply don't claim a discount at all, because again, if they wanted to save five bucks on an $80 cent candle, they would not be buying it on Shopify. That shoppers want choice, they want value, and knowing what those shoppers choose is super meaningful.

(05:39):

An awesome example is for the shoppers who choose to redeem a site credit, imagine if they were able to get a direct mail from the founder of an e-comm brand and they get a site credit sequence that it's handwritten style and it says, I care. We care a lot about our shoppers. I'm a shopper too. Don't forget you've got some money with us, and then boom, you get them on that direct mail, that personal touch. They're buying from a founder, not the brand, but if you're just giving coupon codes, you have no idea who's price sensitive, no idea who has site credit with you. So from the data that we've seen is not only can you have a much more profitable given the unclaimed plus site credit, but also what people choose. That segmentation is extremely powerful as well.

Michael Epstein (06:20):

Yeah, I love that. And I want to ask you about redemption rates in a second, but before that you mentioned what we see and I think it's similar in that we don't advocate for blanket discounts or discounting too early, and I think you have the same approach, whether it's through whatever incentive it is that you're offering, you don't need to over incentivize people too early. To your point, they're not even necessarily looking for that. They're just looking to gain the system somehow or feel like they won somehow. Right? Totally. We talk about the concept of a discount ladder to where you use smaller incentives just to satisfy that need to feel like they won something but not just give away margin unnecessarily. Once they don't take that action, then you could start increasing the incentive over time.

Oren Charnoff (07:06):

Yeah, no, I think there's tons of ways to efficiently discount. The whole idea is not having something blanketed for everyone because you're not able to meet that shopper where they are. You could try with AI m AI to try and do dynamic discounting and there's totally value there, but what's better than a model is choice. So from our data, what we see is half the shoppers do not claim a discount, and that is not surprising because of brand first price. Second shoppers, someone's buying from a Shopify brand because of a recommendation from a friend because an influencer who is super compelling to them because of the brand story they're buying direct from the shop and of those who redeem, we're really seeing about half taking site credit versus cash redemption. So it really is costing brands 30 cents on the dollar compared to a flat discount.

(07:52):

Now what you can do instead of 10% off is offer 20% back, but if that 20% is only getting claimed a third of the time, that's 6.7% per conversion. In the same way like Michael, you're trying to meet shoppers with what they're incentivized by. Throughout the journey, you could actually offer a steep discount, but by putting the expanded customer journey on a post-purchase funnel, what discount do you want? You can meet the shopper where they are. That could be done as a ladder over time or even steeply upfront because you could build a bigger list that way. Discount value leads to bigger lists. People convert when they see big numbers. It's called Black Friday, cyber Monday, July 4th, mother's Day, father's Day. So ladders are an awesome technique people ought to be using, and what we'd say is the best way to do that ladder is with a cashback as opposed to a coupon code.

Michael Epstein (08:39):

To your point, the redemption rates are only a fraction of how many people actually accept it, and also the margin on that is nowhere near the margin of giving up a flat discount, which is why I love the concept

Oren Charnoff (08:50):

And the reconversion, right? Because what a lot of brands ask us is, well, why don't we just offer site credit as a popup and welcome series incentive? That's because a first time shopper does not have trust for what they perceive as fake currency, closed loop site credit to a brand they haven't bought from yet or 10,000 points to a brand that's not even a dollar. But when you hit them with that post-purchase, the trust and then the opportunity, do you actually even want to save more credit in that romance once they bought a product? The reconversion opportunity to me is way more compelling than the unredeemed. This is an LTV play now the unredeemed cashbacks are full price purchases, higher a OV, more margin, more profitable first sale, but the promise of choosing your discount and it being a steeper number and then juicing that up aside credit that just builds LTV right away.

Michael Epstein (09:43):

I love that. That's so smart.

Oren Charnoff (09:45):

Sorry if I'm coming in pretty passionate about this, but things are working and the feedback loops are a lot of fun right now.

Michael Epstein (09:51):

It's great and super, I think actionable for people listening to understand what the alternatives are. And you mentioned something about redemption rates being 50%, 30%, sometimes lower. That's a question we hear all the time, especially for people that like to use coupon codes for attribution purposes in absence of other things. And I think people have this misconception that you give somebody a 10% off or $20 in cash back and a hundred percent of people redeem that, why wouldn't they? It's sitting right there and our data shows that's not even remotely close to true. I'd love to hear more of what you all are seeing just in terms of redemption rates. Once people accept an offer, do they actually apply it to those orders? Do they actually use it?

Oren Charnoff (10:39):

So the way that cashback works is it's through UTM. So shoppers will come in on that pop of welcome series or QR code on a direct mail, and that's associated with UTM, so you can track that shopper. So in that sense, a cashback is eligible for those purchases. If they come through the right place, it might be in the ladder. So you can see at what part of the welcome series, at what stage of it they're actually coming in and converting. So that's how we're able to solve attribution are through these cashback UTMs as opposed to these problematic coupon codes of trying to play the attribution game.

Michael Epstein (11:14):

I'm curious, when people are presented with an offer, how frequently do they actually use the offer that they're presented with or the cashback that they receive

Oren Charnoff (11:23):

With cashback shoppers are given a choice to claim or not to, and then when they claim they can either take it as cash or as site credit. So when we're seeing cashback being applied to future purchases, it's generally through the site credit form factor, but when you're issuing these site credit as an incentive, we're generally seeing only one out of four shoppers using that site credit in the future. Although when they do use it, we're seeing them spend about 2.65 x the value. So the best way to be getting folks to use that site credit, I think there's nothing better than direct mail, like I said before, from the founder writing to the shopper and then having that go to a custom landing page for specific products to optimize LTV because that shopper feels like they have free money as it will. So you can drive them for specific LTV oriented or repurchase rate oriented, take 'em to a subscription landing page, right? There's tons of different ways that you could optimize that and for the cash choices when it's redeemed, people are spending their money as they normally would anywhere in the world.

Michael Epstein (12:22):

Sure, makes sense. Another question that we hear a lot, and I know the answer is it varies a ton by business, but I'd love to just hear your answer. What's the right discount or incentive that I should present upfront?

Oren Charnoff (12:36):

Nearly every brand that we work with, it starts with a pop-up and welcome series because doing an AB split test is the best way to build trust and with tools they're already using like Postscript, Klaviyo and the like. It's a great place to be doing some AB testing to see if cashback is right for your brand. Generally what we're seeing with cashback is let's say you're offering 10% off the power of cashback besides its profitability is the ability to discount more aggressively. Actually what we're generally seeing is if you want to drive substantial more list growth through a discount profitable way to do that's with cashback, and then the best way to get real difference is if you were doing 10%, it's not to move to 15, but it's to change that first number, so just call it 20 or 25. If you're doing 15%, I'm not saying you should jump to 30 or 25, jump to 20 switching.

(13:23):

That first number is where we see an impact. And there's obviously diminishing marginal returns, right? You get to a point where you're discounting. So the marginal impact is small, the margin's so high, so we AB test all that away, but we've done data on the average discount on the Pop-up and welcome series. We've published it before. If you're doing a percentage based discount on the pop-up or welcome series that is 75% of brands are doing percentage-based discounts on the pop-up and welcome series. And also, again, 75% are doing 10% off. Generally what folks are doing, we say take that 20% back

Michael Epstein (13:56):

On the cashback

Oren Charnoff (13:57):

Offer, correct, but again,

Michael Epstein (13:59):

You're getting not only a smaller margin hit when you do it, but you're getting the repeat purchase as well.

Oren Charnoff (14:06):

Totally

Michael Epstein (14:07):

Makes a ton of sense. Yeah.

Oren Charnoff (14:09):

What are you seeing on the direct mail side? What are most folks discount? Firstly, what's that primary use case? Is it inwe? Is it in winback? What is the discount most folks are saying I intend to do? And then if they ask for your opinion, what are you encouraging them to do?

Michael Epstein (14:24):

Yeah, so we typically will say the most common use case for brands starting is like a win back campaign. It's like easy wins, low hanging fruit ROIs basically a hundred percent of the time. And then they'll say, okay, how much should I do? To your point, and especially because we tend to come at the end of that sequence when we think about that in terms of meeting that customer where they are as you were describing, it's typically that they've been presented with an offer via email or SMS and they haven't acted on it. So at that point you want to escalate that offer slightly. We don't say go crazy and go from 10 to 25%, but if you're doing 10, let's move that first number to maybe 20 or 15 to 20 just so that it feels like something meaningful that they haven't seen already a few times before to try and get them to take the action that they haven't taken so far. Switching gears a little bit, Fondue came out of the gates blazing. You guys seem to be everywhere and people were loving the product and got a lot of traction early one. I think it's a really, really smart product, so that always helps hard to market something that nobody wants, but tactically what worked for you? What do you think helped connect with so many brands so quickly and allowed you to get that traction and get that buzz going? 

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Oren Charnoff (15:42):

I think two things. One is this was like an enemy play and it still is, right? Coupon codes are bad and people have strong thoughts about that. They know that they're bad. They don't know how much money they're losing with coupon codes. If you ask them how much money did you give away in discounts last year, brands have no idea. So by just focusing super narrowly on the pop-up and welcome series, those discounts, but specifically focusing on why coupon codes are the devil reincarnated, that really resonated with people. People have really strong thoughts about the Yankees, they love them or they hate them, they have strong thoughts. I think it's the same with discounting broadly, but specifically coupon codes, summ reason how coupon codes are having a moment. There's a ton of problems around them and there's awesome tools out there. We put out a nice map of all the different ways to optimize discounting and couponing for those who will choose to coupon, and I think that was super big as we had the villain, the coupon code.

Michael Epstein (16:36):

Yeah, I love the concept of creating that enemy.

Oren Charnoff (16:38):

And then number two, we've been able to graduate up market to larger brands, but we still treat the brands with less traction in their lifecycle at that point with the same love and respect that we do. The larger brands that they have just been awesome advocates for us and the first sales are founder to founder. So we really get to build that direct relationship where we got a ton of empathy from fellow founders on the case on the brand side that when we shoot them a text, can you give this some love? They do it because they're helping another founder out. It's not like a vendor customer relationship, but it's a founder to founder connection.

Michael Epstein (17:12):

And you've also been really good at creating content. I've seen.

Oren Charnoff (17:16):

Thank you so much. I think there's been two things that have been successful. One is we're not publishing advice, we're just publishing benchmarks. What's the average discount on the popup? The number of emails and SMSs or direct mail should be a feature next time that's used in these sequences and it's from the top a thousand Shopify brands. We're manually creating this data or from the brands that we use, we have some of the redemption data. It's just giving people numbers so they could use it as a sanity check. It's not doing a hard sale of Fondue, it's just creating industry knowledge has been great. And then the last is distribution. Having friends in the ecosystem to help comment and reshare on the, we're all doing the same thing. We just want to spread the good word and help connect with the rest of the e-com community. If you ask people for support, they'll give it to you and then in the echo chamber then builds momentum and pendulums from there. What about you? You guys have came on super strong in many ways. Cashback is a traditional retail, if you will, concept that's being applied to e-commerce in the same ways that direct mail was and is a proven tech that didn't really ever graduate to e-comm. How did you guys come in and remain with your momentum so strong?

Michael Epstein (18:25):

Yeah, I think it's what you said really resonates with me. I think we're running a very similar playbook in that although I'd like to create more of a villain, I love that strategy. We do a little bit with email in the spam folder and things like that and Facebook with iOS and other things that are sort of jacking up your performance. But I think it's getting the data out there showing people that it works, getting bigger and bigger logos that speak on our behalf. To your point, providing that real white glove service and talking founder to founder being that we came from the e-comm world too, and we really understand the needs and pain points and built a product around that. I admire the ability that you all have had to get that content out there in a meaningful way. And I think that that's something we're actively working on, trying to get better, looking at you guys as sort of a good North star for how we want to increase the velocity of getting all this great content we have out to more and more people and leveraging our networks to help amplify that.

Oren Charnoff (19:22):

Firstly, thank you. But also at the same time, we're like the new young kids on the block in e-com, but you guys have wisdom from the experience on the brand side. That's also where I want to be, so that's why the grass is always greener. I just want to ask a question. What's the end game here? What are you guys building towards at PostPilot?

Michael Epstein (19:37):

I think we can be a really big company. I mean, I think that, and we are becoming one, we're growing really fast, but I think that direct mails for a brand should be, it's not going to be their number one channel. It's probably not going to be their number two, although some brands have really built their entire businesses on direct mail, like through catalogs. But I think as a top four channel for a brand both on the retention and acquisition side, I think that that's something that brands should be figuring out how to do. We've seen the risk and results of brands becoming too dependent on one channel, specifically Facebook for getting their message out. And there's a need to diversify channels. There's a need to connect with customers in a more tangible and memorable way as opposed to digital ads and emails. And so we've only scratched the surface of where we want to be, and I think it could be a really big company, a lot of brands out there that having an opportunity to leverage this channel. So talking about being credible, traction that you all have had and how fast you've grown, that takes us to sort of the next part in your journey, which is the big breaking news that will have broke by the time that this airs. So we can talk about it a little bit here, but Fondue was acquired already, which is amazing, so I'd love to hear what drove you to that decision, like why sell now? How'd you pick the acquirer and what is next for Fondue?

Oren Charnoff (21:09):

Yeah, so we were acquired by Postscript, which is super exciting. It's a company that we've had a crush on for a very long time. Our intention is just to create value for brands by creating value for brands that then we get to capture through monetization and then us and our shareholders get rewarded by some sort of exit event. At some point, we weren't intending to sell the company. We had an inbound that came in and then we felt it's the right thing to do is to understand what the company could be worth, both potentially to investors at that time and then also potentially to other buyers. After a meaningful discussion with that inbound, we thought that we should understand what could be done, and it was also an incredible platform to speak directly to the founders of some of the largest companies in the e-comm ecosystem.

(21:52):

And it was a great platform to begin to build a relationship with Postgre that just materialized it extremely quickly. It was 61 days from when we first met the company until the deal closed and our first meeting with Adam Turner, the CEO was scheduled to be for 20 minutes and we went for about two and a half hours. The ideal customer profile is the same. Shopify only US oriented hardcore for us, exclusively US dollar transactions today. The culture of trying to win love from the brands that they won't shut up about it is the same, also a bit of a villain approach. And lastly, besides the fact commercially was something really compelling for us. We believe in Postscript, we believe a ton of what they're doing and making SMS the number one revenue channel, which they're doing for many of their brands. And this company just set an inflection point and with their 10,000 plus brands, that's great.

(22:47):

Folks who we could bring Fondue to and a number of their customers were already using both in the same way that folks at PostPilot and Fondue already working together. There was already so much overlap there. And what I could say is already, it hasn't been 30 days since the deal closed, but a number of our largest nine digit brands have already switched over to be using Postscript broadly. And a number of Postscripts largest brands are now using Fondue at an accelerated pace. We're just super excited to get this in the hand of brand's. Efficiency matters more than ever. Profitability matters more than ever, and the coupon code addiction is larger than ever. So to have this awesome access, we get to create more value for brands faster, which in turn us and all the shareholders we'll get to enjoy at some point. So we're super proud to be full-Time Posties today and Postscript shareholders. It was a great outcome, which is so crazy. If you spoke to me a year and a half ago when we were pivoting, we had no idea what we were going to be building at that point or that this was going to ever let alone so quickly. So we're super ecstatic and excited to continue to work hard for many years to come with Postgres.

Michael Epstein (23:53):

That's amazing. That's an amazing success story. Congrats. Thanks. Is there anything, I don't know if you can share anything, but anything on the roadmap now that you are part of Postscript, how it might impact Fondue, your roadmap features and how you might integrate with their tools?

Oren Charnoff (24:11):

No, whatever email and SMS or Pop-up tool brands are using, it will continue to remain exactly the same. We are functioning in many ways as an independent company within Postscript. Postscript has products, but this is Fondue, a postscript company, not Fondue a product line at Postscript. That could change over time, but this is the intention as we're starting pigs off. But for brands that are using some of the other great SMS tools, everything's going to remain the same. There'll be some great things probably coming out next year to make the postscript implementation with Fondue really meaningful, but for now it's just let's get some good case studies out together and see where this goes. But we're still doing everything as Fondue, just as a postscript company.

Michael Epstein (24:53):

Great. And last question might be a little tricky one, given that you just pivoted into this model a year and a half ago and now already were acquired, but if you were starting something today, what would it be?

Oren Charnoff (25:05):

I have no idea. I'm not even 30 days off from this deal closing, and we're still just at the beginning. If I started something today, I don't know, it would probably be an SMS company with a cashback feature, right? It's just been working so unbelievably well and we've got the horse blinders on and the momentum is so strong. The feedback loops are so great. I don't think I've paused to consider that in I think 18 months since we just really started with cashback, but specifically in Q2, let alone now the beginning here of Q3 I absolutely, I took our first vacation, our family a week ago and got to unplug, deleted Slack and WhatsApp and email from my phone. I have absolutely no idea what I'd be doing. What is a brand and a SaaS company that you've got a big crush on right now? If you were full-time venture capitalist, investing in one brand in full-time, venture capitalists investing in someone else's SaaS company in the e-comm world, who would you be investing in now and why?

Michael Epstein (26:02):

Ooh, that's a great question, man. Now I'm going to have to pick sides on some stuff. There's a bunch. I think I like Postscript a lot as a brand. I think they've done a really good job. You and I were talking a little bit about it earlier on the brand side, man, there's a lot of them, the squat guys, the cuts and true classics guys who have really done a sharp job of understanding their customer and building out products and marketing messages that speak really well to them. The type of content that they're putting out, squat with the creative stuff that's done by Raindrop with all their funny video ads and everything. And there's so many that I think are really, really interesting businesses. I could keep going. How about you? What are the ones that jump out?

Oren Charnoff (26:50):

Firstly, for SaaS companies, it's got to be PostPilot, right? I see so many similarities between what we're doing, taking a proven concept, scaling it for the digital native brands, winning love online with a bunch of those brands. I'm not saying this just because we're on the call, it's unbelievable what you've been able to do that would be on the SaaS slash vendor side. And then from a brand perspective, I respect the brands that make it work without Facebook, either, I guess ideologically or pragmatically. I still, I'll give two quick examples. I really respect. There's a astrology candle brand called the Birthdate Co. And they crush on performance pr, just like getting seen, understanding the timeliness of the different astrological signs. Being a LTV oriented brand, because it's someone's birth date every year, that is not a Facebook heavy business at all. And then lastly, there's a brand called Tabs, which is selling a sexual performance enhancing chocolate. And because they get categorized, be it as pharmaceutical or be it as in the gray market due to its use case from Facebook, they've made it work without those performance marketing dollars. So folks who are able to do it without what you said, the primary channel for many, I just have a ton of respect for those founders.

Michael Epstein (28:04):

Yeah, I love that. That's a great call. I love Oliver. He is a super sharp guy at tabs and similar brands that come to mind that are like mini Katana Isaac over there who's done it through organic video basically. And there's this other slime brand, peachy bbs that built this big. I know it because my daughter buys all their stuff and they do drops like shoe drops basically. And my daughter's sitting there on the website waiting to make sure she gets the slime before it sells out five minutes later. And they've also done it through content. Yeah, those are smart brands. I like it. I like it. Well, this has been great. I appreciate the time and congrats again on the success and the acquisition and everything. You guys are great team. I personally loved partnering with you guys since the early days and excited to see what more comes of this as you work as part of Postscript.

Oren Charnoff (29:00):

It's really just the beginning.

Michael Epstein (29:02):

Awesome. And tons of actionable stuff I think folks can take away on how to implement incentives that I think is, you've been sort of beating that drum and it's such a pain point for brands. So check out fund

Oren Charnoff (29:13):

The main one again, site credit sequences. Everyone who's in retention marketing talks about birthdays. Everyone talks about card browser abandonment flows, welcome. Every site credit holder should be in a unique flow. The best way to hit them is founder to the shopper on a direct mail with the personal touch, and then send 'em to a custom LP based on their site credit value. If you really want to get that fancy. That to me is something, I dunno why it's not

Michael Epstein (29:40):

Spoken about by all retention marketers. Love it. That's a perfect place to end. Cool. Thanks man. Congrats. Thanks a lot.

Announcer (29:50):

On this season of the Nerd Marketing Podcast, you'll hear from the Wharton professor that literally wrote the book on customer centricity, along with Drew and Michael's experience in private equity and advice from VC firm partners on what they look for in investments. And you'll hear topics about brick and mortar retail strategies for CPG brands and much more. Alright, drew and Michael, we'll be back very soon.